Episode 17: How To Advocate For Change While Caring For Ourselves with Dara Friedman-Wheeler, PhD & Jamie Bodenlos, PhD
Finding Our Place in Activism as Helping Professionals
Hey everyone, it's Ashley here from Raised to Empower! In Episode 17, we dove deep into the intricate dance between social justice activism and juggling our day-to-day professional and personal lives. It was an enlightening conversation with our amazing guests, Dara G. Friedman-Wheeler, PhD, and Jamie S. Bodenlos, PhD—both seasoned psychologists and passionate activists. Let's unpack some of the key themes and insights we explored in this episode.
Balancing Professional and Personal Roles
One of the major themes we discussed was the intense pressure we feel as therapists, parents, and individuals to contribute to the myriad social justice causes out there. Dara and Jamie opened up about their own struggles navigating this space.
Feeling Overwhelmed by the Task
It's not uncommon to feel overwhelmed by the sheer number of issues that need our attention. Whether it's addressing systemic racism, climate change, or educational reforms, the weight can be immense. Dara pointed out that this feeling of responsibility might be heightened for those of us in helping professions. As a therapist and a mom, I often feel that guilt—like I'm not doing enough despite stretching myself thin.
Accepting Our Contributions
Jamie reminded us that it's crucial to recognize and accept the level of contribution we can realistically provide at different stages of our lives. Sometimes, our activism might be as simple as sending an email to a senator or participating in a podcast to empower others. It might not feel like much, but every action counts.
Strategic Activism: Leveraging Our Skills
Another insightful topic we touched on was the idea of strategic involvement. Matching our unique skills to specific activist efforts can help manage those feelings of inadequacy and make our contributions more impactful.
Learning from Others
Jamie emphasized the importance of learning from others who have successfully integrated activism into their lives strategically. Whether it's public speaking, writing, or organizing community events, there's a niche for everyone's skills in the activist world.
Engaging with Our Children
Both Dara and Jamie shared how they involve their children in activism. Bringing kids to protests or engaging them in volunteer work not only embodies our values but also instills these principles in the next generation. It's a powerful way to create lasting social change while balancing our roles as parents.
Addressing Shared Emotional Challenges
In our discussion, we also acknowledged the shared emotional challenges we face, both as individuals and professionals, particularly in response to traumatic events like mass shootings and political upheaval.
Humanizing the Therapist-Client Relationship
One crucial aspect that came up was the importance of honesty and shared experiences in our therapeutic spaces. Dara mentioned how validating our clients' and our own emotions can be deeply therapeutic and humanizing. It's not just about being the professional in the room; it's about being fully present as a human being who also struggles and rises above challenges.
Strategies for Emotional Management
We talked about some practical strategies to manage our emotional responses during sessions. Jamie suggested focusing intellectually on the client's issues and processing personal emotions later. This helps in maintaining a balance between professionalism and personal well-being. It's a nuanced approach, but one that can preserve both our sanity and effectiveness as therapists.
The Role of Literature and Writing
Writing and literature emerged as significant tools for exploring the complexities of activism and therapy. Jamie and Dara shared how their book "Being the Change: A Guide for Advocates and Activists on Staying Healthy, Inspired, and Driven" came to fruition. Drawing from their experiences, the book offers strategies for maintaining well-being while being engaged in activism.
Writing as a Reflective Practice
Writing helps us explore the nuances of activism and its impact on our well-being. It's a reflective practice that allows us to delve deeper into our motivations, struggles, and growth. Whether through journaling, blogging, or book writing, it's a way to process and share our journeys with others.
Embracing Our Activist Journeys
At the end of our enriching conversation, we acknowledged that our ability to participate in activism will shift as our lives evolve. Dara and Jamie emphasized the importance of embracing these changes and recognizing that our efforts, no matter how small they may seem, contribute to a larger movement. As therapists, parents, and active members of our communities, it's crucial to integrate community service into our lives.
I hope you found these insights as valuable as I did. Remember, lean into your strengths, be kind to yourself, and recognize the impact of your contributions, however small they may seem. Podcast listeners are also invited to join our Facebook community for further engagement and support.
Let’s keep empowering each other,
Ashley
Transcript for Episode 17
[00:00:00] Ashley Comegys: You are listening to the Raised to Empower podcast. I'm your host, Ashley Comegys, a licensed clinical social worker with a multi-state online therapy practice. I have a passion for empowering women and mom therapists to break free of the fear, overwhelm, and oppressive systems that hold them back from taking action and building the private practice of their dreams.
[00:00:23] My goal is for you to boldly believe in yourself as a clinician and business owner. If you're looking for a place to learn, practice, building, strategy and skill, while also claiming your own power as a woman and a therapist, then you are in the right place. Welcome to the show. Welcome to this week's episode of the Raised and Power Podcast.
[00:00:45] Today's a special. Episode because we have two guests for the first time on this show, and it's a topic that I'm really eager to get a chance to chat with our guests about today. It's one that I know I'm really passionate about, and I [00:01:00] think a lot of you listeners are as well, because I have a feeling a lot of us got into this field because we want to be agents of change and helping people.
[00:01:09] So it feels very timely for where we are in the world and also just who we are as individuals and as. Therapists. One of our guests today is Dara g Friedman Wheeler, PhD. She's a licensed clinical psychologist in Maryland and a research psychologist at the Henry Jackson Foundation Uniform Services University of the Health Sciences.
[00:01:31] She is also on the speaker's faculty of the Beck Institute for Cognitive Behavioral Therapy. She conducts workshops on C B T around the country, including for those doing work in the helping professions and in social justice or advocacy fields. She has authored peer reviewed journal articles and book chapters related to C B T coping, addictions, mood disorders, and related topics, as well as two books, including being the Change, A Guide for Advocates and Activists [00:02:00] on Staying Healthy, inspired and Driven, which was published in January of 2023.
[00:02:05] And our second guest today is Jamie s Bolos PhD. She is a licensed clinical psychologist in New York and professor of Psychological Science at Hobar and William Smith Colleges in Geneva, New York. She is a fellow at the Society of Behavioral Medicine and publishes in the areas of behavioral medicine, mindfulness, and health behaviors.
[00:02:27] She teaches courses in cognitive behavior therapy, clinical psychology and behavioral medicine. In addition to over 50 peer reviewed publications and recent book entitled Being The Change, A Guide for Advocates and Activists on Staying Healthy, inspired and Driven, Dr. Bowen los uses C B T techniques in her private practice work.
[00:02:46] Jamie and Dara, I am so excited to have you here today. Thank you for being here. We're so happy to be
[00:02:52] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: here.
[00:02:53] Ashley Comegys: I always like to kind of start out by asking guests just a little bit about how you got where you are. [00:03:00] I know you both have PhDs and I know Jamie, you are in private practice. Sarah, are you also doing some private practice in addition to all your other work too?
[00:03:10] I do have a small private practice, yeah. So you can pick who goes first, but I always like to know how did you get to where you are? Is this something you always dreamt of as a child? Like, this is what I wanna do when I grow up, or how did you get to this field? Sarah, do you wanna go first?
[00:03:26] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: Sure. So I. I am told by my parents, I think that I wanted to be a psychologist starting when I was about 11.
[00:03:33] So I guess, yes, start there. When I was in college is when I discovered research and how much I loved research. So I think, as I'm sure is true for so many of your listeners, I wanted to help people who were in distress and ease suffering. Yeah. Um, and when I was in college, I was. Sort of fascinated to notice that there were patterns in distress and suffering, and that we could learn from those and, and learn how to best help people that way.
[00:03:58] Yeah. Um, by noticing, of [00:04:00] course, the differences also in all of the, the individuality that people show up with, but also, you know, the commonalities and what we can learn from each other. So I actually taught at Goucher College for 13 years and then decided I wanted to get back more into clinical research.
[00:04:16] So, um, I've been doing that for the last couple of years and, um, met Jamie through a special interest group of the Association for Behavioral and Cognitive Therapies that was focused on clinical psychology and liberal arts colleges. And we discovered we had a shared interest in civic engagement and activism.
[00:04:37] Yeah. And that we could use what we knew as therapists to sort of support each other and others in doing that kind of work and, and sort of keeping ourselves afloat while trying to make positive change in the world. Yeah. So, That's sort of how we ended up writing a, our book,
[00:04:53] Ashley Comegys: which I can't wait to talk in more depth about.
[00:04:56] Jamie, how did you get where you are? It's interesting. I,
[00:04:59] Jamie Bodenlos: I guess I [00:05:00] didn't know at such a young age that I wanted to be a psychologist. I knew that in high school I liked the class I took in psychology. I was a first generation college student, so I didn't have much guidance from my parents. Mm. So when I went away to college just taking the classes, I just got so excited.
[00:05:16] I knew that this was gonna be my major, but it wasn't until I took the psychology of learning where I was starting to dive into all the behavioral theory and operating conditioning and all of that, that I just kind of nerded out over it all. I was like, this is so interesting. This explains so much. And I remember being the only student in the class that got an a, I think everybody else found it really boring, and I just loved it.
[00:05:41] And I think that took me down the route of going into more behavioral medicine in clinical psychology. And when I came out with my degree in clinical psychology, I was kinda going down the route of being somebody who would work at like a research one medical school. Um, I had actually gotten an NIH grant [00:06:00] funded, but what, what really?
[00:06:03] Made me pivot towards a small liberal arts college was the fact that I, I felt that my time and energy would be better spent helping students introduce them to the field of psychology to. Screen undergraduates and expose them for the first time to this field because of the passion and excitement that I got from learning about it.
[00:06:24] I liked research, but I also found that a lot of the people who were trying to get funding from N I H were really solely focused on getting the next grant funding their lab, and we're really losing touch with helping people with really affecting communities and the the people that. Would be better served by different types of therapies and treatments and things like that.
[00:06:50] So it was, it was sort of, I became a little bit disillusioned by it all. Um, and that's why I went to the small liberal arts college and I've been at Hobart for, I think this was like [00:07:00] my 14th years. Yeah. And I do feel like I'm making that difference. I have trained so many students who go on to get their PhDs or go into clinical psychology or social work
[00:07:09] Ashley Comegys: and things like that.
[00:07:10] So Yeah. That you're, you're part of their journey to be an agent of change. Yeah. I, I was gonna go first into what does it look like for us to hold this space of being an agent interchange, but I think I first wanna kind of actually dive a little bit into the book that you wrote to kind of hear more about that and then use that to kind of help guide us a little bit into like, what does this look like in practice for us who are a lot of times overwhelmed and busy and stressed, and we wanna be agents of change, but how do we have bandwidth for that?
[00:07:44] So, How did this book come about? And in layman's terms, a brief synopsis of like, if we were gonna pick this book up, what would this do for us? How would we, we take something away from it? So
[00:07:56] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: I can start again. And then Jamie, if you wanna chime in. Yeah. So as I mentioned, Jamie and I [00:08:00] connected through this professional organization and discovered that we had a shared interest in advocacy and activism work.
[00:08:06] And also found that as we got more involved in it, we quickly felt overwhelmed and sort of demoralized and discouraged and we. Found ourselves encouraging each other using the strategies that we knew from our clinical training. So reminding each other to take breaks and get sleep and seek social support and to do what we needed to do to take care of ourselves.
[00:08:29] And I think it was someone else, cuz this was all taking place on social media. I should note, I think it was someone else who was like, Hey, you guys should write a book about this or something for other people and. We actually started out by writing a column for a professional newsletter, which in some ways was easier because we were targeting folks who already knew these strategies and just saying like, Hey, don't forget these things that we all talk about with our clients to try to support them in their daily lives.
[00:08:54] These things work for us too, and we need to apply them to keep going, um, as we're maybe [00:09:00] going to protest or calling our senators or. Advocating for more funding for a particular disorder or whatever it may be. So we started again with that brief column and then we, um, pitched the idea of the book. And in the book we try to explain a lot of these concepts as we would to clients basically, um, to folks who are not necessarily.
[00:09:24] Um, in helping professions, although they might be Yeah. But, uh, basics of C B T and other empirically supported therapies, strategies from those therapies that might help us when we're feeling discouraged, demoralized, or exhausted from Yeah. All that's going on in the world and the changes that we're trying to make.
[00:09:45] Jamie Bodenlos: And I do think that to Ashley that, you know, we, we, we do address this notion of, um, I guess just to, I, I guess the way I've been thinking about it lately is that there's sort of this evolution that's happened over my own [00:10:00] life. Like even just reflecting back when we started, you know, talking more about this era is that like, since then, you know, so much has changed in our lives with Covid, with, you know, our children getting older.
[00:10:12] Um, demands on our time are different. And this is something that we talk about in the book too, is how. Our, our level of a activism and advocacy has sort of evolved with those changes developmentally in our lives too. Um, and, and I think that's really important to.
[00:10:31] You know, you may pick up the book at some point and turn to chapter five and you know, read that, and that's really useful. But at another stage in your life, you may need to go back to your values and ask yourself, like, at this point, am I living a life consistent with my values? You know, if you're spending, you know, 45 hours a week working, but then another 12 to 13 in kid activities that are they really getting anything out of it like, In [00:11:00] no time for this work, you know?
[00:11:01] Sure. Like sort of just reassessing
[00:11:03] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: too. I think that's right. I think that is a major theme of the book and, and one that I would love to sort of promote to your listeners is this idea of flexibility. And I think, yeah, Ashley, I think you've talked about that in prior podcasts about this idea of sort of different seasons of your life and Yeah.
[00:11:20] You know, I think many of us mom therapists are striving for. Is elusive concept of work-life balance and um, you know, maybe it's work life and other priorities. Sure. That we're trying to balance. And first of all, I'm not sure anyone ever officially arrives there, right? It's more of an aspiration than a destination, but also what that looks like is gonna change over the course of your life.
[00:11:42] And there may be times when you're not doing as much engaged work in the community, and there may be times when you're able to do more, and that's okay. And. Um, that I think is a thread that we try to weave through through the book as well.
[00:11:55] Ashley Comegys: I'm so glad to hear that you guys are like, emphasizing that because as you guys [00:12:00] are talking, I was even thinking of my journey just from growing up and that like social justice was always like a really important thing for me and I was very involved in volunteering and trying to be an agent for social change and I, I went to get my master's in social work and that's one of the values of that profession.
[00:12:17] And. When I was single and didn't have children, like I had more time for that, and it's not like. My desire to support and advocate for change has disappeared, but it's how do I fit it in with all of the other stuff? And recognizing that where I am right now with very small children isn't necessarily where I'm gonna be in a few years, and maybe what it looks like now will look different in the future because what it looked like 10 years ago looks very different than it does now.
[00:12:53] Absolutely.
[00:12:54] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: And I think when we, when we have very small children, sometimes we think like, [00:13:00] okay, how do I fit this in as a parent? And I, I know one thing I thought as I was, when I, when my kids were real little, I would look at other parents colleagues and be like, well, they do that. And they have kids not recognizing like, yeah, their kids are teenagers.
[00:13:14] That's different. Yeah. Yeah. You don't have to figure it out for all of parenthood right now. Sure, sure. It's gonna evolve. Some things are prob are likely to get easier, right? And so you just need to navigate this chapter now and then you can navigate the next chapter next.
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[00:14:16] Connecting.
[00:14:21] I feel like this is so timely because I mean, you talk to anybody who's been in. The therapy world are really like a helping profession the last few years. And we're tired, right? Yeah. Like we're tired and it's, it's been hard on all levels. Professional families, social, environmental, like every, every piece has been draining in many ways for many people.
[00:14:47] And it doesn't mean that the desire to help support change has disappeared. Right. But, I know one of the things I, and in talking with a lot of colleagues have struggled with is [00:15:00] how do we hold space for our clients who are also wrestling with these things, but then also we're struggling to hold space for ourselves.
[00:15:11] How do we take care of ourselves during that? Or how do we hold space for others when we are also reeling from what's on the news or what's going on in the world too?
[00:15:23] Jamie Bodenlos: Yeah, and I, I think that the first place to start would be just being honest about that, right? I think that's a point where it's okay to hold that space together.
[00:15:34] It points in time too, so that your clients also know, yes, this is a, not just affecting you, it affects all of us. Being authentic in that way is really important that there's this sort of shared experience that we're all having at this point in time. I think it's also important to validate your own emotions and validate your client's emotions too.
[00:15:56] That process, I mean, as therapist, we know how [00:16:00] powerful that can be, but you know, just really honing in on how that makes you feel and reflecting on that. I think that's a really important starting place. And then I think, you know, these are a lot of times the things that. Are affecting us, whether it's, you know, another mass shooting Yeah.
[00:16:17] Or you know, more rights being overturned. These are things that essentially, uh, uh, the big picture of it all is out of our control. Now, there's things that we can control, but for the most part, it's an uncontrollable stressor. And I think that's when we need to take time for ourselves and encourage our clients to take time for themselves.
[00:16:37] And these things that are happening could be quite traumatic to all of us. Right. You know, I'm just thinking about seeing Roe versus Wade overturned. This was my biggest fear that I had. Yeah. You know, and to watch my daughter now live in a world where, you know this Right. Isn't there for her in every state and Yeah.
[00:16:56] You know, it's just completely turned her world upside down. [00:17:00]
[00:17:00] Ashley Comegys: Yeah. Well, I love what you, you say about like humanizing the experience because I think, again, there is such a tendency for us as. Practitioners that client therapist separation white, like the blank slate, but recognizing that there is a human in this.
[00:17:18] And I think that was one of the things I definitely saw during the pandemic where there was this commonality of. We literally were going through the same things and that there was a point at which we're all kind of like, I'm your therapist, you're my client, but this sucks, right? Or This is hard, and I can understand this with you, and not just as this abstract thing and yeah, what you're describing, I'm feeling too, like I'm experiencing that and I think obviously always with.
[00:17:46] Transfer and countertransference in mind that yeah, there can be an opportunity almost for connection there. What you're going through is real. Because I feel it too. And you're not alone in this. Mm-hmm. [00:18:00]
[00:18:00] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: And I think it is always that balance, you know? I mean, so many things. One of, one of the things that was sort of satisfying about writing a book, I think is that you could get into the nuance.
[00:18:07] Like it's this and it's also this. Yeah. And those two things might sort of seem contradictory, but in fact we need a little bit of both. Right. And so I think it's a little bit of like, We're experiencing some similar things, and also this is our time to focus on your experience of it. Right. And I know for myself, one of the things that helps me to do that is having my own outlets, having the people that I can talk to about my experience of it so that I don't end up.
[00:18:34] Accidentally using session time to do that. Sure. So as Jamie was saying, taking time for yourself, I think that, you know, it's something we wanna encourage our clients to do, but also remember to do for ourselves. Cuz I think it can be slippery, especially with some clients whose views are very similar to our own.
[00:18:51] Yeah. Um, we could easily slip into a like shared granting and we wanna just be cautious about that. Right. I think fine to say like, this is [00:19:00] affecting me too. I share your rage.
[00:19:02] Ashley Comegys: Yeah.
[00:19:04] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: Keeping it, their therapy, their time. Right?
[00:19:06] Jamie Bodenlos: Sure.
[00:19:07] Ashley Comegys: One of the things I know that in speaking with other colleagues, that's been really challenging, you know?
[00:19:14] You could just point, here's an issue, here's another issue. And there like, there's so many different ones. But I know I was talking with a colleague after the, um, mass shooting that happened in Nashville a few months ago and where we're holding space for clients and that. By no means is this an issue that I want to turn a blind eye to, but it also hits very close to home.
[00:19:37] If you have children that are going to school and you're worried about this now, right? Recognizing I'm having to be in this space where I am very connected with this client and I am holding space for what they're processing. I also share those fears, but also I almost feel like I have to have. A blinder up to some of the issues sometimes because it can feel too much.
[00:19:59] Like I can [00:20:00] only hear so much. Yeah. But I also don't want to pretend like it doesn't exist. Do you have any strategies or ways to think about that? I. Yeah,
[00:20:10] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: I think for myself, I sort of, and, and this is obviously not a 100% solution cuz we, it's again, something we don't have total control over, but I, I sometimes will try to think about like, how much am I gonna engage in this effectively in the moment, in the session.
[00:20:26] So especially something like that, that at moment I can get. Really, really terrified and upset about. Sure. I sort of tell myself, okay, I'm gonna focus on what this person is saying. Mm-hmm. And sort of stick with it intellectually and deal with my own emotional reaction later again. Yeah. Is that perfect?
[00:20:44] Can I do it every time? No, but yeah. Would I strive for,
[00:20:48] Jamie Bodenlos: I think it's really hard. I mean, you know, even when I'm teaching, I experience this too, that something really. Unfortunately, it feels like it's too often something really tragic will happen and [00:21:00] I'm about to walk into the classroom. Yeah, right. You know, um, and, and so you're dealing with your own emotional response as well as other people's, or in, in this case, your clients.
[00:21:10] And I think it is about putting on a different hat. I think back to what my professor said when I was, you know, just, um, Just getting started in my training and this sort of like fake it till you make it. Um, and also Lenahan, D B T has the whole opposite action, right? When you're, you know, having this one emotion, if, if dealing with it that point in time isn't really the, the best solution.
[00:21:35] Trying to. You know, have the opposite response to it, it can be helpful. So trying to do a little bit of that, processing that at a later time. Is it ideal? No. But it also feels sort of like a survival moment. Yeah. Too, right?
[00:21:52] Ashley Comegys: Yeah. I think that's so true and really helpful, because there have been moments where you [00:22:00] end one session, you pick up your phone, you see the headline, and now you're going into another session.
[00:22:04] Yeah. And you're like, What in the world just happened, right? Yeah. But you have to go into this other space. Yeah. And so, yeah, I like that idea of you feel this one emotion, but I'm gonna have to clip on the complete opposite of it because I can't even go there right now.
[00:22:19] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: The other thing that I've found, especially in the early days of Covid, is that for some of our clients who are dealing with deeply difficult.
[00:22:26] Personal life circumstances, the things that are happening in the world sometimes aren't affecting them. Yeah. In the ways we might expect. And so, yeah, sometimes I'd be like, oh my gosh, of course they're gonna talk about this big headline or something, and you go in and they're like, that is not on their radar.
[00:22:41] Like they're typically trying to survive and put one foot in front of the other, or
[00:22:45] Ashley Comegys: it's, it's too much for them to even talk about. Right,
[00:22:48] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: right. Yeah. So again, you know, can be. Just a useful reminder to put on your, like your listening hat. Like meet Yeah. I'm meeting them where they are, [00:23:00] which may not be where I think they are based on what everybody else seems
[00:23:04] Ashley Comegys: to be talking about.
[00:23:05] Yeah.
[00:23:06] Jamie Bodenlos: And I do feel like we're in a unique space too, in that we are all therapists, but we're also, you know, more social justice oriented because there are a lot of clients and a lot of people mm-hmm. Quite frankly, that put their head in the sand and, and don't want to be bothered with those details.
[00:23:24] They don't wanna process it and think about what the implications are. And you know, I think like you're saying, Dar, that they, it's just not on their radar or the focus of what they're thinking about. Meanwhile, for us, we feel like our world's being turned upside down, especially when we're talking about things like, and unfortunately this is usually what we're seeing are like school shootings or mass shootings.
[00:23:44] Yeah. That, you know, as parents of young kids, this is,
[00:23:48] Ashley Comegys: this is on our radar. Yeah. Yeah, it's real life. Like you're thinking about how, how is your child gonna be safe? My, my, um, oldest is gonna be going to kindergarten and I had the orientation [00:24:00] and. Never did I ever think when I'm taking my child to a new school that I'm looking around of like, how is he safe gonna be safe here?
[00:24:06] Like what are the protections in place? That shouldn't be what I'm having to think about, but like, it's a almost like a common thing now that weighs on, if, you know, if you don't have a child, it may not weigh on you in the same way, but if you are in that place, a phrasing, children that are going to school is a common occurrence.
[00:24:23] It's a common thought. Yeah.
[00:24:25] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: And then I think some also about some of the parents of even older kids, maybe not even school age anymore, but in downtown Baltimore who worry about that every time their kid leaves a house. Yeah. And I am reminded that the school shootings to them are not necessarily their focus or their
[00:24:43] Ashley Comegys: main fear.
[00:24:44] Right? Yeah. So day-to-day survival is right.
[00:24:48] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: But just a reminder of different people's experiences, I guess, of, of how different people may be experiencing these same. World events or life events or, yeah, national events.
[00:24:58] Ashley Comegys: One of the things [00:25:00] that I know for myself can get overwhelming when thinking about social justice and, and, you know, wanting to be an activist for change again, is there are so many issues.
[00:25:11] There are so many challenges going on and there's so many different things that you can be advocating for. Thinking of that kind of context and then also the context of what we were talking about earlier, of being a therapist, being a mom, where. Our time is very split. And again, it's gonna look different in different phases of life.
[00:25:32] But I also know people who have high school kids who are like, I am busier now than when they were toddlers. Do you have any like recommendations or things to think about of how do we decide where to put our time when it comes to being an activist? Because I think sometimes there can be that guilt feeling of I, I wish I could do more when.
[00:25:54] You know, this doesn't feel like enough. And so how to kind of reconcile that. I, [00:26:00] I can start on
[00:26:00] Jamie Bodenlos: that. Um, d um, so I've, I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I think going back to this idea that things have changed over time. My kids are a little bit older than years eight and 10, and I remember when they were younger just being like, I need to, I need to change everything.
[00:26:15] And like, just feeling burned out from all the rallies I was going to and all the op-eds I was trying to write and all the, all the things diving into all these areas. Lately I've been thinking about, you know, and I think this comes from writing the book honestly, is really diving in has, has changed me in the way that I'm looking at things as well.
[00:26:34] And I realize I just don't have that much time and, you know, where do I wanna put my time? And because of the way the world has changed, I've, I've been really prioritizing certain things and eliminating things that aren't. Weren't helpful, right? Sure. There were, were things that I was spending time doing or feeling pressured to do that weren't in line with, you know, the things that are important now, and I think a lot of it, I, I've switched more my activism, just [00:27:00] like things affecting schools and children because of where I am in life and I realize that I need to think about a strategy.
[00:27:09] I can't do it all. Yeah. And what skills do I have and what do I bring to the table? And how can I use my skills to make a difference? And so that's been, you know, my new strategy and I spend time thinking about this and usually when I'm exercising, so just like any other mom, like multitasking. But yeah.
[00:27:31] Um, but like recently I just joined the mental health committee in my school district and I feel really good about that. I feel like that would be a really good use of my time. But yeah, I think, I think it's really important to strategize and figure out. You know, what is the skillset I have and where can I put that best
[00:27:48] Ashley Comegys: to use?
[00:27:49] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: Yeah. I think, you know, there's so many strategies that you can use to sort of focus that energy and, and deal with that feeling of overwhelm, because it, it's certainly, I mean, I [00:28:00] think this is one of the things that, that Jamie and I first started helping each other with was this feeling of like, I'm not doing enough.
[00:28:05] Or like, oh, I did something with that issue, but I haven't paid any attention to this issue. And that one's so important too. And I think, you know, matching your skills. Two, the uh, topic is great. Like Jamie said, joining a mental health committee. I'm focusing on schools because it's a good match for your time of life, or what feels most relevant to you right now.
[00:28:23] Sure. Also a great way to go. This comes up, by the way, at a lot of the talks that we give this topic, and I remember once someone shared that she chooses to focus on the environment because she feels like it sort of underlies everything else. Mm-hmm. Like if we don't have a planet where we can live, none of the rest of it will matter.
[00:28:41] Right? Yeah. And so I was like, yep, that makes sense to me too. I say this sort of jokingly, but it's really true. One of my strategies has been to connect with people who I know are really. Focused on what's going on in the world and in this country and themselves are very careful to choose [00:29:00] places where they feel like we can make a difference.
[00:29:01] Mm-hmm. And they know, like from the data, what strategies make a difference and who's running a tight campaign and who's, and I. Sort of do what they say
[00:29:10] Ashley Comegys: they're doing. Yeah. And so,
[00:29:13] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: and it's a lot of the folks doing some of this work, especially in the more political realms I've found are retired and maybe have more time to parse out like, Ooh, here's a thing where we could really make a difference.
[00:29:23] So then I show up on Saturday morning and do what they tell me to do. Right. Yeah. And I know that sounds a little silly and like I'm sort of shirking the responsibility, but I think in some cases that can be a viable strategy too. Yeah. And again, remembering you don't have to do it all at once, right?
[00:29:40] Yeah. That you can, you know, you can shift your focus over time. Whatever you're doing makes the difference. Now, I was also intrigued one time that this came up recently in a talk that I was giving. Someone stood up and shared that they carved out a niche for themselves and that they see all the things that the rest of us in the community are doing and that they're [00:30:00] like, I don't feel guilty about that.
[00:30:01] I'm doing what I'm doing and you're doing what you're doing. And I was like, well, that sounds a little magic. Like how'd you get there? Um, but I wondered then like, well then where does this guilt come from? And is this like, is it like a working mom thing or is it gender specific? Or like, why do we put this on ourselves that we feel like we have to be.
[00:30:22] Doing everything all the time. Not everybody feels that way apparently. Right.
[00:30:27] Ashley Comegys: Well, and is it also like, um, uh, career specific or like job specific? Right? Like we, we are in the helping profession and so. You know, I think that's why a lot of therapists struggle with fee setting and with burnout or, you know, taking too many clients.
[00:30:44] Cuz we wanna help everybody when it comes to things in the world. We wanna, we wanna help it all right. We
[00:30:50] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: do it all. We wanna them. Yeah, that makes so much sense to me. I have a friend who, I think takes on maybe a little bit less of this [00:31:00] who said to me once a few years ago, you know, I guess I feel like suffering is inevitable.
[00:31:05] Hmm. And I was like, yeah, that's true. It is. And I too work towards some level of acceptance, but, but here's the but right. But a lot of it's preventable and I feel compelled to try to prevent it. Yeah. I guess different people feel differently compelled, so I don't
[00:31:22] Ashley Comegys: know. Well, and I wonder too, for some of the acceptance piece, right, is being able to accept what you can give right now.
[00:31:30] Mm-hmm. For me and where I am in life, sometimes it's. Only being able to, you know, those emails that you get that says like, you know, send this to your senator. Now I can click that and it's done. Like mm-hmm. Cause that's literally all I can do. Yeah. Right now. But it's something. Yeah. And that if that's where I am for right now, that I have to accept that because there's no time or space for much more than that right now.
[00:31:55] 100%.
[00:31:58] Jamie Bodenlos: And can I just point out, Ashley, that you [00:32:00] are actually doing more than just that you're doing this podcast, which I feel like is helping other people be the change, so. Mm-hmm. You know, just to give you credit where credit, thank you.
[00:32:11] Ashley Comegys: Yeah. Yeah. No, thank you for that. That's, I mean, part of the reason for this is I want.
[00:32:18] You know, other women and mom, clinicians to be empowered to have the life that they want with their work, with their family. You know, that again, it doesn't have to be that we're beholden to these other systems. And I think, you know,
[00:32:32] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: I, I think it is so important as Jamie just did to give ourselves credit for what we are doing.
[00:32:36] Yeah. And hopefully we're raising, uh, socially conscious children and we're supporting our clients and being the best people they can be. Yeah. Those things really matter and they matter. They matter a lot. And I think we sometimes forget that they matter. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. We forget that they matter outside of ourselves and our own little spheres,
[00:32:58] Ashley Comegys: so, yeah.
[00:32:59] Well, and I was [00:33:00] gonna ask before we wrap up, like have you guys involved your children in any of this work? Yes.
[00:33:05] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: I think to very, to different degrees and we can give different examples. Yeah, I think, but I definitely have brought my kids to protests and. You know, my kids are differently interested in different topics.
[00:33:17] My daughter, I think, is more interested, uh, well a few years ago, like with the kids in detention centers. Mm-hmm. That was sort of her topic. She wanted to go to every protest I went to about that and she made posters and things of that sort. My son has become more interested in the environment recently.
[00:33:31] Yeah, thanks. In part to his science teachers in high school who focus on these issues and things. So as they've gotten older, I've been more hands off, but just for following their lead. And just hearing the things that, that come out of their mouths, you can tell they're, they're paying attention, they're tuning into those things, so that's great.
[00:33:50] Jamie Bodenlos: Yeah. You know, for me, my kids are still a little bit young, but both of them, uh, well one of them right now. Um, next year, my daughter will join the student council at school that does a lot of [00:34:00] work in the community. My son's been a part of it now for the last, this is his third year. No. Second year, next year will be his third year, and he's not as open as my daughter to it, but he's been doing the work and I think it's opening his eyes to things, my children, to protest with me in rallies, but I feel like they may not remember it as much.
[00:34:22] Were smaller. We make a commitment on holidays to go to the rescue mission and deliver meals. Yeah, to families in need. And at first they were very resistant. Like it's Christmas morning, you know, we should be spending the morning at home playing with our toys, but we have to get in the car at 8:00 AM and go deliver these meals and.
[00:34:43] Once they saw the people and, you know, saw how appreciative they were and got that satisfaction, now everyone's on board. We just go and do it. And they go and make cookies for the rescue mission as well around the holidays. And so that's been like a new
[00:34:58] Ashley Comegys: tradition, you know, that is [00:35:00] also a, a, an agent of change, right?
[00:35:02] Like that is, you know, modeling and demonstrating for your children and also teaching them that is part of being. The activist is helping them cultivate that spirit and that mentality. Absolutely.
[00:35:15] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: I think even the stuff they don't explicitly remember, there's some sort of implicit framing that like just, these are things we do, these are settings we're comfortable.
[00:35:23] Yeah. I think it was Kamala Harris's memoir where she talks about how her mom brought her to protest in an umbrella stroller. Yeah, and I think it just sets up like a. Context. Uh, a familiar one.
[00:35:36] Ashley Comegys: Well, I remember that from my childhood of, you know, taking food to the family down the street that needed it or doing the volunteer service projects and stuff.
[00:35:45] That was what was modeled. That was what was taught and. A hundred percent. That has a huge bearing on who I am today and the things I focus on and that are of value and importance to me. So yeah, what we're doing, we can't underestimate the work [00:36:00] we're doing with our children. How do we do it all? Well, sometimes it's teaching our kids.
[00:36:04] Mm-hmm. Exactly.
[00:36:06] Jamie Bodenlos: Yeah.
[00:36:07] Ashley Comegys: If someone wanted to grab a copy of your book, where can they find it? So it's on Amazon,
[00:36:13] Dara Friedman-Wheeler: Barnes and Noble. Um, it was published by APA Life Tools. You can buy it directly from them. bookshop.org, sort of my favorites, ports, independent bookstores. You can choose an independent bookstore in your neighborhood to, uh, support.
[00:36:27] And we have a website about it that just links back to some of those other sources
[00:36:32] Ashley Comegys: as well. We will definitely link the website. Yeah. So that people can find that it has been so enjoyable getting to talk with both of you guys today. I'm encouraged and like a little, okay, there's a little bit more pep in my step.
[00:36:46] Maybe that like, okay. Either I am doing what I can right now and maybe even thinking ahead to. As life changes and seasons come and go, how could this look different for me and for my [00:37:00] family? So I thank you guys for helping to have this conversation. Thank you so much for having us. Thank you so much for listening to the Raise to Empower podcast.
[00:37:10] Check the show notes for all links and resources mentioned in the show. If you found today's episode helpful or inspiring, be sure to share it with your therapist friends, and don't forget to subscribe to the show and leave your five star rating and review. It truly means so much to me and will help us get our message of empowerment out to other women and mom clinicians, and I'd love to connect with you in our Facebook community.
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